Editing Talk:Magic Effects

= New Schools? =
Is it possible to create your own magic school? -FViral

:Technically no, though I'll have no grudge against anyone who proves me wrong. There are some things that are hard-coded and can't be added, changed, or removed. If you wanted to get tricky I bet you could find a way to "add" a school in deed if not name by using scripted spell effects and a script to track their "level" progress and spell effectiveness and the like. But the player would never have a skill shown in their stats and etc.

:And please remember to sign your posts. I figured out how! You can do so by typing four tildes (~), or by hitting the tool button second in from the right. --[[User:Stickman|Stickman]] 17:21, 26 March 2006 (EST)

= Editting Spell Effects? =

Hm, seems you can't edit spell effects either. Such as, making a spell last longer than it's coded for. Or perhaps I'm missing something, will have to look into the TES more. [[User:Landeyda|Landeyda]] 08:03, 27 March 2006 (EST)

:--[[User:Kkuhlmann|Kkuhlmann]] 08:40, 12 April 2006 (EDT): Pretty sure you're missing something. Magic effects are the basic effects that the code recognizes (i.e. Fire Damage, Invisibility, Turn Undead, etc.). You can make any spells you want in the editor using any combination of these effects, with whatever duration, power, etc. that you want.

You can't edit spell effects, but you can activate a script using a spell and use whatever visual effect you want.
--[[User:Sagron|Sagron]] 18:58, 31 March 2006 (EST)

You can't 'edit' spells but you can make multiple spells of different id's but with the same name and remove/add them to have the same effect. For example, I made a custom class that had the woodelfs command creature spell and I made 5 copies of the spell each with a greater magnitude. When ever you go up 5 levels the current spell is deleted and replaced with another of the same name that could control a creature 5 levels above the previous. So it seems like your spell gets more powerful with time. (As long as you ignore the words at the top of the screen that say 'Manipulate Creature Deleted', 'Manipulate Creature Added' once every 5 levels. Small price to pay... [[User:Decoup|Decoup]] 20:42, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

:The problem with that is that you have to create X versions of the spell, and you can't have truly dynamic spells that way. That's sort of half-assed in my opinion, and certainly not a step forward from Morrowind. --[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 21:35, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

= Hard-Coded Spell Effects are BAD =

== Adding New Magic Effects, part I ==

Some effects like spray are not used in the game at all and therefore can't be used without changing an existing effect. This inability to make new magic effects is pretty lame.
--[[User:Lap|Lap]] 17:05, 2 April 2006 (Central)

:/signed, I thought after five years we'd be able to add spell effects. This is supremely annoying. --[[User:Halo112358|Halo112358]] 04:03, 3 April 2006 (EDT)
:To clarify: there's no way to create a new conceptual ''spell effect'' that can be used with the custom spellmaker in game. As an example, say I want to create a fire spell effect that damages undead only, and I'd like to be able to create custom spells with the spellmaker that incorporate this effect. Ideally I'd be able to clone the fire damage effect and specify an effect script that runs while the effect is active - it would be something like if ( targetActor.isUndead ) { targetActor.applyFireDamage magnitudeOfSpell }.

:I can fake this right now by creating custom spells and attaching scripts, but there's no way to use the spellmaker to generate custom spells with the script attached.--[[User:Halo112358|Halo112358]] 21:23, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

:Yeah, it is lame. The amount of stuff they have hard coded seems unnecessary. I've been messing with enabling bound enchantments. I checked the enchanting box in magic effects, looked at the spells, looked at the settings, etc... I can't get it to work. Either I'm missing something not covered in the wiki or obvious in other spell effects or something hard coded is preventing it from working. Seems to me they could easily release a patch that moves this stuff out of the program code and into a new ESM, with an updated CS to add settings for new effects, schools of magic, skills, or anything else we wanted to add. Its also possible that its not hard coded at all, just hidden in the ESM in some section the CS isn't designed to access. Putting that stuff in the actual engine code just doesn't make sense. [[User:MegaBurn|MegaBurn]] 03:40, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

:--[[User:Kkuhlmann|Kkuhlmann]] 08:40, 12 April 2006 (EDT): There's nothing "hidden" in the ESM. The CS that you've got is exactly the one we used to make the game. Magic effects being hardcoded became a headache for us as well, but there were other priorities for the programmers and we worked around it.

You <B>can</b> make your own custom effects with the editor using scripts. This is not 'faking it' its the way to do it. There are many quests already in the game that use scripts to make effects that are not creatable in the spell maker without the scripting functions. Thats why they are there. I have almost completed the first new spells that I have been working on. I am making 'Force Push' and 'Force Pull' from Star Wars. They're turning out pretty cool. Once I finish them I'll make a tutorial on how they work, because I think the concept could be used for other purposes. [[User:Decoup|Decoup]] 20:47, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

:There are great limitations to scripted effects, such as their inability to be used in Spellmaking/Enchanting. They're good, but not the end-all-be-all. --[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 21:35, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

== Enchanting ==

To add to that, I just tried "forcing" the CS to add the bound enchantment effects to a test ring. It doesn't work, at all. Something is clearly preventing the bound item enchantment from working but I have no idea what. I also picked through the XML files to see if there was some kind of list of effects or something, no luck. Why did they have to screw with enchanting? Nothing wrong with having a bound item enchantments and cutting out the cast on-target enchantments seriously weakens mages (I really miss my dire fireball rings). I guess I can script something with on equip triggers but this is still driving me nuts. The new spell casting method is a major improvement but the enchanting and spell making systems are a major step backwards. For that matter, what happened to making scrolls? I remember seeing a preview mention something about a rune based scroll writing minigame or some such, what happened to that? And enchanting arrows, why can't we enchant them? And only one constant effect per item, why? Why can we not change this stuff via the CS (without using scripts), why?!? This is the kind of stuff that just pisses me off. [[User:MegaBurn|MegaBurn]] 05:17, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

:--[[User:Kkuhlmann|Kkuhlmann]] 08:40, 12 April 2006 (EDT): I've been on the project for the duration and there was never a scroll-writing minigame proposed or designed. It's a cool idea, but we couldn't include everything... As far as "one constant effect per item" -- not sure what you mean. You can make an enchantment (in the CS) with any number of effects that you want.

::--[[User:Mrflippy|Mrflippy]] 12:32, 12 April 2006 (EDT) You can only have one enchantment per item however. If you want to have more than one effect, you have to create a new enchantment. This makes it more difficult to have items with multiple effects because you'll end up having to make a bazillion enchantments.

:::Kkuhlmann, I mean during game play, for all of that. Now impossible to create enchanted items during game play that have anything remotely akin to the magic effects of other pre-existing enchanted items, without using special scripted items. Before players were able to create two extremely powerful enchanted item, using souls of the Tribunal "gods", some mods also added creatures with larger souls. Now the enchantment options are very limited. I've been looking for solutions to these problems but there are no settings in the CS that control the number of constant effect enchantments the PC can add. I can't find a means of enabling arrow enchantment in game, or scroll enchantment.

:::Maybe that scroll creation idea was something floating around the office when a reporter dropped in for a visit or just wishful thinking, or something. But I do remember seeing it in a preview, and I have a few ideas for how to implement it. Problem is I have no idea how to make it work with the scripting. Using rune words to form phrases just isn't practical with message box menus, it looks like there is a free form text entry box in the XML files but theres no documented function to use it. A free form text entry function to enter the runic phrases would work well. That could also be used for other stuff, like issuing more complex sets of directions to NPC's (without turning the dialog into a total mess), or just taking notes while adventuring. A new script function is required to actually make this stuff appear on parchment.

:::For the scrolls, it would be a matter of adding a special scripted quill to trigger the scroll creation script, translating the text input (runic phrase) into a spell effect, and swapping out a sheet of plain parchment for a scripted spell effect scroll – and seeding a bunch of books across the game world with various runes and their meanings, along with sample phrases. A tutorial quest or two would be good too. Writing could be governed by speech craft so non-magic centric characters can make full use of it. Implementing this would be no small task to be sure but it would be much easier for a developer to do it, you could add a new function (or 10) to handle it rather than having to rely on a huge number of really complex scripts. Sounds to me like a prime candidate for an official mod, and well worth $1.99 to download it.

:::I added CS features and functions to the [[Wish_List]] to cover all of this stuff, and pretty much everything else I can think of.

:::This is getting really long for a talk page entry, but I also wanted to add that I don't mean to be disrespectful or ungrateful. I'm just pushing to make the game better. I know a great deal of effort goes into the game design, probably better than most. I'm the lead designer on Openlancer, an open source sequel to Freelancer (and Tachyon, and others). Playing Oblivion over the past few weeks has certainly helped my keep my sanity but I'm also solidly in “design mode” so I've jumped right in on modding. Oblivion is a great game but just like anything else there is always room for improvement, its a never ending cycle. Way I see it improving and expanding the script engine will probably help the modding community the most, allowing them to crank out more mods which just makes Oblivion all that much better.

:::Thanks, [[User:MegaBurn|MegaBurn]] 04:17, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

I just want to point out that most of the changes made to oblivion in regards to spells, spell makers, enchanting and enchantment making were to create balance between the classes. In Morrowind and evrn Daggerfall there was no way that a Warrior could ever be as powerful as a Mage. Even with the new changes to the enchanting you can make yourself almost uneffected by one thing or another. For example, if you enchant your shoes, pants, shirt, wrist irons, 2 rings, amulet, hood, shield (or armour equivalants) with shield (you have 90% shield), (chamelion 90% invisible), fortify attribute (+90 to it), etc. The ability to make yourself a god still exists, but it is a lot more balanced betwene classes. And like in Morrowind if you are still not happy that you can't be invincible as it is, you have the cs. I am happy with every change that was made to the engine. Even the new governing attrtibutes for each skill are an improvement. Now all fighting is strength, etc. It stops you from being able to make a character that just uses agility based skills, or endurance based skills and forces you to spead out your abilities more to prevent instant god characters.[[User:Decoup|Decoup]] 20:57, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

:I disagree strongly that things have been so completely "fixed". And I never found being a Mage either easier or more powerful than a Warrior. --[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 21:35, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

== Scripted Effects ==

Creating a new spell, it would seem I have to use the Script Effect icon for all the custom spells? It's weird that you can enter Magic Effects but you're really not doing much more then altering minor stuff. I just find it weird to use a Burden icon for all the Script Effect spells one creates. Any workaround? --[[User:Silverljus|Silverljus]] 08:06, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

:You can change the icon, but that changes it for all other mods. Therefore, you can have whatever icon you want for Scripted Effects, but all Scripted Effects are going to have the same icon. Which is very dumb.--[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 23:20, 13 May 2006 (EDT)

::Yeah, I noticed the possibility to change it.. and the lack of usefulness in doing so. The whole scripted effects thing needs a revamp, else it will be a near useless appendix in the game. --[[User:Silverljus|Silverljus]] 08:26, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

:::If you put a no-damage spell that has the icon you want as the first effect (I think it's first) of your spell (give the spell two effects) then it will take that icon rather than the default Script Effect icon. --[[User:Tegid|Tegid]] 10:16, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

::::Ah, if that works, that's ''excellent''. Thank you. --[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 17:21, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

:::::The only problem with this trick would be that the dummy effect shows up in the list of specific effects for a spell.--[[User:Slserpent|Snake]] 16:51, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

== Adding New Magic Effects, part II ==

I just downloaded a mod that added Holy Damage spells but theres no Holy Damage effect.....so how the heck did the guy do it? He would have had to make his own effect, right? Some people also said that te effect shows up in the spell maker in game but I havent tried it so I dont know if its true. I want to do my own Light and Darkness effect spells but I cant figure out how this guy made the holy damage effect so I cant make my own either. Worst thing is, I dont know ANY scripting so im thinking that this is gonna be impossible with my current skills. Unless scripting it really easy to explain, im outta luck. So what I wanna know is, someone made a new effect so how did he do it? Anyone know? (Id ask the author but I dont have a very convenient way to contact him)[[User:Lugia|Lugia]] EDIT: HAH! I found the spell effects list and he edited Health Damage to be his Holy Damage thing! That explains why people were talking about other NPCs being able to do this, because he just edited an existing effect, he didnt make his own. So now the question is: "Can you add an effect? Even if you have to edit the code of the game in notepad, there should be SOME way.

:There is no official way to add a new effect, though I imagine you could probably change that if you felt like reverse-engineering the game and adding it in (probably absurdly difficult, and likely illegal), but that's no good because you'd be the only one with the version that can do it.--[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 23:20, 13 May 2006 (EDT)

Interesting information on this topic: The game came with an extra Spell Effect, Z004 (Name: Summon 04 Extra), which might be used to create a new effect. Unfortunately, there's only one, meaning that any mod loaded after yours using Z004 will overwrite yours (or yours will overwrite someone elses), so it's pretty useless.

There are also two effects with no use (apparently), DARK (Name: DO NOT USE - Darkness) and LOCK (Name: DO NOT USE - Lock). Attempts by Bethesda that didn't work? I don't know. There's also RSWD (Name: Resist Water Damage), which has all its settings at the default, leading me to believe it is also unused. So maybe, rather than only 1 (Z004) extra effects, there are 4 (Z004, DARK, LOCK, and RSWD). Still not very helpful (at all).--[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] 23:20, 13 May 2006 (EDT)

:As far as I know, the Lock-Spell works perfecly to lock doors etc. I've heared it's not used because it troubles the AI - maybe darkness does something similar.--[[User:Elim Garak|Elim Garak]] 02:32, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

::Darkness just looks weird when used (turns the player and some of the surrounding area dark). It might affect detection negatively, but otherwise doesn't seem to cause problems.

::--[[User:Haama|Haama]] 10:37, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

== Base Cost ==

Would it be possible to put the formula for determining the cost of an effect on the article? I'm assuming Base Cost is multiplied to the cost so values above 1 increase the Magicka cost and values less than 1 decrease the cost. I suppose I could spend time with CS's spell making with Autocalc on, but I'd rather get it from the horse's mouth. Would be handy also how the player's skill factors into this.

Thanks, [[User:Pi Mast|Pi Mast]] 16:05, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

== No Ingredient Flag - Does it work? ==

There's something i don't understand about the effects: Vampirism, which is flagged "no ingredient" in the Magic effect editor is in the effect list, but "turn undead" is no, though it's allowed on ingredients according to it's flags. Am I doing something wrong? [[User:Elim Garak|Elim Garak]] 02:10, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

:Likewise, all of the Bound spells are marked as "No Ingredient" but can be used in ingredients. Also, it doesn't seem like Turn Undead can be an Ability either, and I don't see a flag for it. I assume, then, the list of Magic Effects for ingredients is hard-coded. I wonder if "No Ingredient" really refers to Wortcraft?

:--[[User:Haama|Haama]] 18:42, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

== Poisons and Detrimental/Hostile flags ==

It seems that the poison status is determined by the hostile, rather than the detrimental flag. For instance, Burden is hostile but not detrimental, and when alone on a potion the potion is a poison.

Another example - switching a scripted effect to be hostile with OBSE's SetNthScriptedEffectHostile will turn a potion into a poison (if all other effects are hostile as well).

Finally, Calm is detrimental, but not hostile. When alone on a potion the potion is not considered a poison.

So, what does detrimental do/determine?--[[User:Haama|Haama]] 15:39, 6 January 2008 (EST)