Talk:MessageBox Tutorial

OK, what exactly is there on here that is potentially wrong information? I admit to not having gone through it thoroughly since I am not up to date on all of the problems in dealing with messageboxes, although I have corrected the spell script menu thing (and linked within the article to the appropriate section). I do think that the scripting seems to be unnecessarily complicated, but I haven't done much with messageboxes.

--ShadowDancer 14:11, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Just the one problem, and it only comes up if you have the activator do more than move back to the starting cell when everything ends (Choosing == 0). I've used all of this in my mods, so I know that every part works (barring typos, but I've cut and paste quite a bit of this into new mods without problems). I know it's complex, but that's what makes it bulletproof, expandable, and a template for any menu system.

More general - I (well, I wouldn't mind help) keep putting aside rewriting this, because, well, I do have to rewrite it (different flow, examples, etc.). Until then, while I very reluctantly agree that the different versions of the script need to be done (spell, quest, token), I think it would be easier to keep them in an external link, with an explanation of the difference between the activator and spell version, as the flow is supposed to work towards one all-purpose script.

Let me know what you think about that setup (I'll help anyway I can)

I had purposely avoided quests, spells, and tokens. There's nothing they can do that an activator can't, and activators are simply superior - quest variables can be reset (StartQuest on an already running quest will reset the variables, and I've heard that adding new variables requires resetting the quest, though that's unverified and there are other possible explanations), tokens can't keep persistent variables, and spells are simply a pain (duration, etc.). The cost - having to move the activator around. It's a bit moot anyway, as people keep asking for the different versions.

--Haama 16:47, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

I can agree that an activator can be superior in certain instances. However, there is one major problem with activators that does not show up in spell scripts - Numerous GameMode blocks. In my opinion, it would be easier to write a spell script, and have the activator cast it in some instances, in order to reduce the number of GameMode blocks that are constantly running. In a larger mod (or in multiple mods), this could cause slow down if there are enough GameMode blocks running, even with Return statements (although it would admittedly be a huge number of GameMode blocks).

--ShadowDancer 00:37, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

oO, huh? The GameMode block runs 2 'if' statements (if Choosing == 0 and if Reset == 0) before stopping, and more importantly it's in a remote cell when it's not being used. Guidobot suggests that activators in remote cells run once every 30 seconds, and from what I've seen I think they were only running because he was setting a variable on the activator every 30 seconds. I've been meaning to test 'set' versus 'if', so I'll see how many it takes before a problem is reached (I've had to run functions 10000/frame before seeing a difference, so I'll see).

Full devil's advocate mode - The problems people run into have almost always stemmed from a script that works for one situation (single menu usually), but not for theirs. I think the tutorial should work towards one, and only one, script that can be used for any messagebox system - multiple menus, etc. A spell cannot be used for multiple menus, as you never know how much the player will go back and forth between menus, and it takes around 15 frames in GameMode before their decision is caught by GetButtonPressed (so .25-1 second for each new menu). Also, spells will not start until GameMode, limiting their functionality, and they cannot store persistent variables. For these reason, I think it would be better to discourage people from using spells (even to the point of not posting scripts) as they would lead to more questions than working scripts.

I think a token or quest system might be plausible, however. A quest system would also need to run every frame (well, at least I find the delay from StartQuest unusable), and a token system would need to set variables on another persistent object (though it would probably be easier to conceptualize). I really believe that only one type of system needs to be in the tutorial. The only reason I have a heart for, is that people might not want to learn another system. In this case, though, I think the article needs to be rewritten to convince them other methods work and are easy, rather than separate articles or sections.

--Haama 01:41, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

If you have looked at the number of mods that some people claim to be running (I have seen lists of 50+ on the forums), there could be an impact if multiple GameMode blocks are running at the same time in most of them. That is how my thinking is working for purposes of this discussion. Additionally, there is no telling if all of the safeguards that you or I, as experienced scripters, would place in GameMode blocks are being used in those mod's GameMode blocks. I believe that at one point there was a discussion about the effects of GameMode blocks on game performance and whether or not the active GameMode blocks processed the whole script, even if it didn't actively do anything at the moment. If I remember correctly, it was determined that all of the lines were processed even though the game engine didn't have anything to do - basically a Return statement didn't exit GameMode, it just deactivated the computing of the following lines which were still read. I could be wrong, but I thought that was what was determined. DragoonWraith may remember more of the discussion? Anyway, my point of thought is that running in GameMode can be like an addicting drug for some people, to the point where a "great idea" takes over and causes a game to go from 60 FPS to 12 FPS. Admittedly it probably won't happen in a MessageBox script. And Guidobot could be right, I haven't tested the effects of GameMode in a remote cell other than making sure that GameMode wasn't running a complicated math script without the PC present (I made a little solar system, LOL!)

Aside from that, the simple solution to a spell script is either to not allow them to go from one menu to another to a previous menu, or to up the time on the spell and save the result for the ScriptEffectFinish. Setting a variable, and maybe an effect shader, both resolving during the spell completion, should take care of the "wasted time" as the spell is "working its magic to accomplish the caster's desire". For instance, Raziel23x was working on a script that required the use of multiple menus to do what he wanted just due to the numerous choices. Since it is a spell script, it is just easier to use the ScriptEffectxxx to perform the task in my opinion.

Tokens on the other hand, may have issues of their own. At least, adding and removing them quickly has been implicated in CTDs.

Quest scripts only run every 5 seconds, probably due to the number of quests in the game that could be running simultaneously.

While it may be true that one menu system could theoretically cover pretty much any circumstance, I would personally go for the simpler script construction. If you are letting people decide how much of your script to choose, which is what ends up happening with a tutorial, you can't guarantee that they will use the whole script. This might cause issues when someone is running multiple mods if the activator isn't removed to a remote cell in some of them. My personal choice would be to show various examples, explain the possible pitfalls of the examples, and leave the type of script choice up to the individual since they are going to choose how they are going to script it anyway.

--ShadowDancer 05:59, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I'll ask DW. If it's from before OBSE's looping and GetNumItems, then I don't see how they could have tested for it - I haven't seen anything that makes enough of a dent in FPS to tell that the script is still "silently" processed.

Speaking of which, I'm not talking about 50, or 100 times being a problem - I'm talking about 1000s before you can even see a fraction of an FPS lost. With a test version of the Inventory Tracker, I ran 1000 'set' function, over 3000 'if' functions, and a few other functions every frame and I couldn't even tell it was activate. I assume that there was a partial of an FPS taken, as I could see the difference when I doubled everything, but it's lost in the noise of random FPS variation.

Good thinking on the spell script, that'd make it work. Just make sure that everything is set back to 0 when the player really exits the menu, or else you'll keep repeating the last step.

For now I'm going to alter the spell script to make it more all-purpose, and place a warning that using it for multiple menus hasn't been tested (I trust you'll take it down/alter it once you've got it working). I think that when I rewrite this, I'll use general examples, or a token example, and then branch out and explain the 4 methods of running the messagebox.

--Haama 10:03, 25 August 2007 (EDT)