User talk:Diablerie
Notes on Game Balance
One of the issues I ran into while working on the Claws + Monk Gear mod was game balance. Powerful weapons are cool, but making something too powerful, too early in the game just isn't fun.
Fortunately (in a sense), hand-to-hand combat was already underpowered in Oblivion. Adding on-strike damage to gauntlets and claw weapons would bring it up to par with weapon combat. Then, to avoid having the player "lose" a slot, I could add additional properties to the item.
My rule of thumb is not to make items more powerful than anything that already exists in the game. Trancendent Sigil Stones are useful guidelines for this. For example, the best sigils can do 25 points of elemental damage, increase stats by 12, give 35% elemental resistance, or 20 points of shield.
Gauntlets use the hand slot, so doing damage and adding a "replacement" gauntlet ability would make it a fair item. Claws use the ring slot, and it's possible to equip two, so claws should only do half damage. I intentionally made on-strike claws and gauntlets not equippable at the same time.
Price works as a balancing factor only at low levels, where money is limited. By the time the player reaches level 15+, he can buy pretty much anything in the game. I think the best way to make items specifically for a higher level character is to make a level-limited quest.
-- Diablerie 11:25, 10 June 2006 (EDT)
Discussion
Comments are welcome! Please don't edit the table below, though. -- Diablerie 11:25, 10 June 2006 (EDT)
Well, this sounds like a good mod you're making! An idea for this leveled thing though, instead of having it so that you can only get the quest at level 20 or whatever, how about you have the enchantment leveled (lv. 5, 10, 15, 20, etc...)? Then again, there's always the problem of the player "growing out" of the item, as it becomes obselete after the player goes beyond a certain level. Anyway, just an idea I thought that you could use. The Imperial Dragon 22:13, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
- That system would work, but only for quest rewards. For the purposes of this mod, though, I think it would be best items were static. I want to guarantee that quest reward items will be more powerful that purchaseable items. -- Diablerie 23:54, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
Claws + Monk Gear Item Plan
| Item | Item Type | How to Get | Abilities | Critical | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Stonefist Bracers | bracers | merchant | Health damage 3; Block 6 | ||
| Bracers of the Sun | bracers | merchant | Fire damage 10; Light 30; Resist fire 15 | ||
| Elemental Bands | bracers | hidden merchant | Fire, Frost, Shock damage 5; Hand to hand 10 | ||
| Fists of Flame | leather gauntlets | merchant | Fire damage 5 | ||
| Hands of Oblivion | daedric gauntlets | hidden merchant | Fire damage 15; Strength 10 | ||
| Touch of Rime | fur gauntlets | merchant | Frost damage 5 | ||
| Frostbite | blades gauntlets | merchant | Frost damage 10; Damage speed 5 | ||
| Arctic Grip | glass gauntlets | hidden merchant | Frost damage 15; Frost shield 10 | Boost frost shield? | |
| Gloves of Lightning | steel gauntlets | merchant | Shock damage 5 | ||
| Stormtouch | orcish gauntlets | merchant | Shock damage 10; Fortify speed 8 | ||
| Thunderfist | elvish gauntlets | hidden merchant | Shock damage 12; Weakness to shock 50 (on strike) | ||
| Iron Knuckles (L) | knuckles | merchant, loot | Health damage 2 | weak set | |
| Iron Knuckles (R) | knuckles | merchant, loot | Health damage 2 | weak set | |
| Steel Katar (L) | katar | merchant, loot | Health damage 3 | weak set | |
| Steel Katar (R) | katar | merchant, loot | Health damage 3 | weak set | |
| Fist of the Brawler (L) | knuckles | merchant | Health damage 2; Hand to hand 4 | Damage strength 5 | weak set; unique |
| Fist of Might (R) | knuckles | merchant | Health damage 2; Strength 4 | weak set; unique | |
| Claw of the Bear (L) | claws? | merchant | Frost damage 5; Strength 5; Resist frost 20 | ? | medium-powered set; unique |
| Claw of the Tiger (R) | claws? | merchant | Fire damage 5; Agility 5; Resist fire 20 | medium-powered set; unique | |
| Silent Death (L) | katar? | hidden merchant? quest? | Poison damage 8; Shield 16; Sneak 10; Light, Heavy armor -100 | Fire damage 10 | strong set (unarmored); unique |
| Swift Retribution (R) | katar? | hidden merchant? quest? | Poison damage 8; Shield 16; Athletics 10; Light, Heavy armor -100 | strong set (unarmored); unique | |
| Dragon Talon (L) | dragon claws? | quest | ? damage 11; ? | Paralysis 2 secs | ultimate set; unique |
| Dragon Talon (R) | dragon claws? | quest | ? damage 11; ? | ultimate set; unique | |
| Blade of Final Rest (L) | glass katar | guild merchant | Health damage 8; Disintegrate armor 80; Light armor 10 | Frost damage 3; Disintegrate weapon 200 | Dark Brotherhood set; unique |
| Blade of Pestilence (R) | glass katar | guild merchant | Poison damage 5; Weakness to poison 50 (on strike) | Dark Brotherhood set; unique | |
| Hand of Justice (L) | knuckles | guild merchant | Frost damage 8; ? | Restore health 25 (on self) | Fighters Guild set; unique |
| Hand of Valor (R) | knuckles | guild merchant | Shock damage 8; ? | Fighters Guild set; unique | |
| Bound Claws (L) | daedric claws | guild merchant (spell) | Fire damage 6; Damage intelligence 5; Damage wisdom 5 | Restore magicka 25 (on self) | Mages Guild set (summonable); unique |
| Bound Claws (R) | daedric claws | guild merchant (spell) | Fire damage 6; Damage magicka 10 | Mages Guild set (summonable); unique | |
| Blade of the Deceiver (L) | punchblade | guild merchant | Health damage 8; Luck 5; Sneak 10 | Demoralize 75 | Thieves Guild set; unique |
| Blade of the Infiltrator (R) | punchblade | guild merchant | Health damage 8; Agility 5; Security 10 | Thieves Guild set; unique |
Mod Planning/Discussion
General questions:
- Should there be a set of claws for each guild, or just some of them?
- Create new quests or tie in to existing quests?
- What kind of set bonuses for the claws?
One possibility is to have some sort of "critical strike" ability for claws. If matching claws are equipped, have a chance of doing extra damage on each hit. -- Diablerie 08:56, 11 June 2006 (EDT)
- I think crit strike chance for a matching set of claws is a great idea, if it can be done it's definatley the way to go. It would differentiate the claws from the gauntlets. I'd also say that the stronger claws should be better than the gauntlets, since they are the main focus of the mod, i mean the gauntlets can be any gauntlets , but the claws and katars are what is percieved to do extra damage. Also no damage gauntlets and claws at the same time. -- Cryo
To limit the level at witch you can get them i'd say place them on fixed level bosses , so even if a level 5 gets the quest, there is no way he can defeat the level 40 boss using the Blades of Final Rest for example.
Also have longer quests to get the whole set, for example you find out about a powerfull set of claws, and have to search someone out who knows their location and find each claw separatley in some dungeon or on some boss.
Another way to recieve quests is from books, like have a rare book that forifies h2h by 1 and tells you about the possible location of a certain pair of claws. -- Cryo
- I found an excellent place to have a hidden merchant and/or a quest giver. There's an "isolated house" in the southwest of Cyrodiil. On the world map, it's just north of the "st" in "The West Weald". The house just has some unimportant bandits in it, and they can be replaced with one or more NPCs. -- Diablerie 16:23, 12 June 2006 (EDT)
The DB and fighters guild claws are ok, i'd say add in some special Punchblades for the thieves guild that fortify sneak as well as do damage, but no claws for the mages guild though (or maybe a strong summonable set) -- Cryo
- Summonable claws! Awesome idea! Making a spell that "fakes" a bound item should be doable. It would be helpful if you could make a set of claws with a daedric texture, preferably ones that attach from the back of the hand. -- Diablerie 16:23, 12 June 2006 (EDT)
- Yeah ok i'll make a set of daedric claws, i already stared working on the katar model today , and on the ultimate claw set, i was thinking of dragon claws, seeing as how dragons are the most powerfull creatures in nirn (or whatever the world is called) plus it would look cool having dragon claws as weapons, now i just have to settle on a design -- Cryo
I'll write more as i get ideas, this is shaping up great so far -- Cryo
About the ultimate set, paralisys is way to powerfull, make it have a proc chance of paralisys , something like 5% and do some nice damage , that should be ok. As for the rest of the claws they are shaping up great. Oh never mind i just saw what you did with the crit table, GREAT idea having a special crit for each set!
No we should just experiment with what a good proc chance for crits would be, is it ok if i edit the table a bit and add some crit ideas of my own? --Cryo
- Go right ahead and edit the table. For the critical chance, I'm thinking of making it 1/10 of the player's HtH skill (so 80% HtH gives 8% critical hit chance, for example). I'm hoping that won't be too powerful. By the way, you can sign entries with 4 tildes ("~"); the wiki automatically replaces them with your name and the date. -- Diablerie 22:07, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
Ok i will copy and paste the table for now, if you like the changes i make replace the main table
| Item | Item Type | How to Get | Abilities | Critical | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Iron Knuckles | knuckles | merchant, loot lists | Health damage 2; | Health damage 10 | weakest set, basic H2H weapon |
| Fist of the Brawler | knuckles? | specialised claw merchant | Health damage 2; Hand to hand 4 | Forify strength 5 for 10 secs on self? | weak set - enchanted |
| Steel Katar | Katar | merchant, loot lists | Health damage 3; | Damage health 15 | Basic katars, weak |
| Claw of the Bear | claws | specialised claw merchant | Frost damage 5; Strength 5; Resist frost 20 | ? | medium-powered set |
| Claw of the Tiger | claws? | specialised claw merchant | Fire damage 5; Agility 5; Resist fire 20 | " | |
| Silent Death | katar | hidden merchant? quest? | Poison damage 8; Shield 16; Sneak 10; Light, Heavy armor -100 | Fire damage 10 | strong set (unarmored) |
| Swift Retribution | Folding Katar | hidden merchant? quest? | Poison damage 8; Shield 12; Athletics 10; Light, Heavy armor -100 | Disintegrate armor 100 pts | hidden merchant, very expensive |
| Dragons Talons | Unique Dragon claws | quest | ? damage 13; H2H 15 pts | Paralysis 2 secs | ultimate set; paralysis too powerful? |
| The Butterfly | folding katar | quest | Acrobatics 10; damage health 11; Agility 10 | damage health 30 | quest set |
| Blade of Final Rest | black glass claws | guild merchant | Health damage 8; Disintegrate armor 80; sneak 10 | Frost damage 10; Disintegrate weapon 200 | Dark Brotherhood set |
| Blade of Pestilence | glass claws | hidden merchant | Poison damage 5; Weakness to poison 20 (on strike) | Poison damage 15; Weakness to poison 60 | Hidden merchant |
| Hand of Justice | knuckles? | guild merchant | Frost damage 8; Strength 10 | Restore health 25 (on self) | Fighters Guild set |
| Hand of Valor | knuckles? | quest boss | Shock damage 8; shield 7 | quest | |
| Sanities Eclipse (bound) | daedric claws? | guild merchant (spell) | Fire damage 6; Damage intelligence 5; Damage wisdom 5 | Restore magicka 25 (on self) | Mages Guild set (summonable) |
| Mageslayer (bound) | daedric claws? | guild merchant (spell) | Fire damage 6; Damage magicka 10 | Silence 5 secs; damage Intelligence 10 | quest |
| Blades of the Infiltrator | Black punchblade | guild merchant | Health damage 8; Security 10; Sneak 10 | Demoralize 75 | Thieves Guild set |
| Blades of Debilitation | punchblade? | boss | Health damage 8; Agility 5; | Burden 1000 pts for 2 secs (heavy burden causes knockdown?) | quest |
OK so i reduced guild sets to 1 to make them more special , added glass claws , a basic knuckle and Katar set (maybe we need a basic claw set as well). We still have to add the glass katar ( a couple versions should do) About guild items, we have knuckles for fighters, punchblades for thieves, glass claws for DB and Daedric claws for mages, the types all sem to match the respective guilds I will also finalize models before i work on new ones so you can get them into the game, so expect final knuckles today or tomorow and final punchblades and foldng katars in 2-3 days -- Cryo
- Ah, I see where I went wrong. I should have marked more clearly that each row of the table was one item, and not one set. I started this page as an organizational aid for entering data in the CS, which is why they're organized like that. I'll continue merging the tables in the morning.
- To make them more interesting, I wanted to give the left and right claws in each unique set different names and abilities. Or is that too confusing? -- Diablerie 23:54, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
Are there going to be any sets for the Arena in this mod? The Imperial Dragon 22:35, 13 June 2006 (EDT)
- I don't think so. We were planning on having claws only for the major guilds, not the minor ones. -- Diablerie 23:54, 13 June 2006 (EDT)