Category talk:Settings

Width Issues

This being a category is causing problems with the page width. Suggestions?
Dragoon Wraith TALK 18:28, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Methinks the problem lies not with the category, but with the wiki's sudden inability to count to 200. Take a gander at the functions category, and see this inexplicable folly of the wiki only extends to settings (wow, gander actually passed a spell check)

--Haama 02:00, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

I noticed that earlier when I was putting in settings. The problem actually lies down at the bottom of the page where all of the settings are listed. Due to the length of the names, the page is extended outwards to accomodate the names in three columns. Really the only solution for it would be to reduce the number of settings stored on the pages so that it is only two columns in width and therefore will be within the regular width of the wiki pages.

--ShadowDancer 03:21, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, haama, I noticed that too. I dunno what that's about.

ShadowDancer, there's no way to do that. Those links are automatically generated by the Wiki when people include [[Category: Settings]] tags in an article.

I think we should probably change this from a category to a normal page, and include links at the bottom of each setting page... That's an absolute nightmare to actually do, though. We need one of those Wiki bots...

Dragoon Wraith TALK 10:48, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

The wiki is counting to 200 on the page, if you add the subcategories and the articles together, which seems to be how it does the functions category.

I was kind of afraid that the wiki automatically set up the number of links in the page (but I was hoping otherwise). I don't know how you would take care of it other than making multiple [[Category:Settings]] pages like [[Category: Settings (1)]] or something similar, and adding only a certain number of pages to each one. On the other hand, they could be set up as subcategories on the [[Category: Settings]] page and make navigating a little easier if they were set like [[Category: Settings (xxx to xxx)]]. Although I would then suggest moving the current subcategories to articles at that point just to seperate them from the list of settings subcategories. Any way its done is probably going to end up being a nightmare until all of the settings pages are set up (which is something I am planning on continuing this weekend) and it is formatted.

--ShadowDancer 13:22, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

Manual sub-categories are an idea, but you still have to go through every GMST and update them... that's a problem. May as well just use the list we already have and avoid using Categories altogether - has the added bonus of allowing people to Search for the Settings page (which they currently can't because the Search ignores Categories).

Also, I've figured out code that allows us to "fake" the category box. Put this code at the bottom of a page, and it will look like the Category list, but without generating the links on that category's page. May be useful for something:

<div id="catlinks"><p class='catlinks'>[[Special:Categories|Category]]: (link)</p></div>

Put the link to the appropriate category in place of the (link) in the code, and it'll work.

Example:

Looks fine to me.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 13:47, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm, how about faking the Articles and Subcategories sections? Is that possible? Then just use the other link to go back to [[Category: Settings]]. Since they won't show up on the page, you could then fake the Articles and Subcategories to your hearts content to format it as you wanted.

--ShadowDancer 15:25, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

That's very clever, I like that. We do have to update every single setting page again. By simulating the category for both pages users can search for the settings page and we won't have that uncontrollable amount of links at the bottom of the settings page. I'd go for this.

--Qazaaq 17:29, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

There ought to be a way to automate this. I know Wikipedia has bots for this kind of thing. I'll look into that when I get a chance.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 18:02, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

Moving back to the left...Actually, comparatively there are few pages that need to be updated. There are far more of them that need to be set up in the first place. I was playing around to see if I could figure out how to fake the articles table, but no luck so far with making it look like the actual ones. The Subcategories are easy to do with a little manipulation.

==Subcategories==
There is one subcategory to this category.
===D===
* [[:Category:Deprecated Settings|Deprecated Settings]]

On the plus side, if there aren't Articles or Subcategories, they don't show up on the page, so there won't be confusion until someone adds with an actual Article or Subcategory link.

--ShadowDancer 22:00, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

OK. After spending about 1 & 1/2 hrs, I figured out coding for the Articles. I am afraid its a tiny bit complex but you can see it here. The first cell is necessary for the spacing or else the bullets end up right next to the wall.Additionally, cellpadding didn't look right when used to move the bullets away from the outer box around the "fake Articles". The letters for the sections are also a bit complex since they are actually in two rows. Just remember to leave that cell out on the next line or cells. But thats how it looks in the regular Articles pages for the most part.

{edit} OK, I just looked and there are edit tags as well. I don't know if there is a way to turn those off?

--ShadowDancer 00:07, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

I was thinking we'd just not do that at all, and only have the list that we have, currently above the bit about Subcategories and Articles. Seems easier to me...

Dragoon Wraith TALK 00:48, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Ack, that got screwed up, sorry about that.

Anyway, I'm impressed. Nice work on those tables. To get rid of the Edit tag, you have to not use headers, which means no H#. I can figure out how to fake those, if you like. If you'd rather set it up that way, that's fine too. Seems like more work for little gain, though.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 00:51, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

I agree that there is little gain, other than making things fit the format. As for being easier, I would not necessarily agree since most of those pages haven't even been created yet. If we worked out a format now, they could be done when the page is set up (which I have already been working on when putting in the game settings). If you can come up with fake headers, that would be perfect. Then its just a matter of setting up the ones already done and adding the appropriate tags to those pages. The table thing can be a cut and paste operation that would go relatively quickly for the initial setup although you still have to add in the settings. Would take at most a 10 mins to create a table to input the settings into, and probably less.

--ShadowDancer 01:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

If we didn't do this, we could just use the list we already have. We wouldn't have to do anything except change the pages already set up from the real category tag to the fake category tag, and use the fake category tag instead of the real one in the future.

Anyway, assuming you go forward with the fake category-style listing, do you plan on having a limited number per page? If so, how do you plan on creating different pages? You could have copies of the whole settings page and number them, but that causes a bunch of problems... There may be a way to use Templates here. I don't know a whole lot about how they work, but it may be possible to set up a Template that works like the Category list does now...

Dragoon Wraith TALK 08:45, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

I don't think a faked category table has an advantage, but I don't mind seeing one either.

--Qazaaq 07:55, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, after playing around with things, I can't figure out a way to change things with templates. I can make links, but there is no way that I know of to pipe the next page into the template called by the link. I wish I could see the coding that is used by the wiki engine since I am sure that has all of the answers of how to do it. But as it stands, I don't see an easy way to link things together other than by writing out a bunch of pages all pointing to the next and previous pages.

--ShadowDancer 01:29, 8 August 2007 (EDT)

(Back to left) Well, at very least we can reduce the length of the list. I set up tables that are 2 columns wide that can be seen here. Since my previous efforts didn't work I think that the solution is going to need to be the templates we have (modified to be two columns wide) and the fake category link.

--ShadowDancer 20:15, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

Seems good to me.

Dragoon Wraith TALK 10:51, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

OK, I will copy the information over from the ones I was testing on to the appropriate templates.

--ShadowDancer 12:53, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

I went through and changed a bunch of the links to the fake category link. There are less than 200 left to finish at this point to bring the page width back under control.

ShadowDancer 15:54, 30 September 2007 (EDT)

OK, now all of the previous articles have been removed from the bottom of the Category:Settings page and I added a link pointing to the bottom of the page to be able to jump right to the subcategories section for ease of going to the setting concepts. That way if more setting concepts are added, they will be easy to get to. And, of course, the width is back to normal.

ShadowDancer 11:33, 1 October 2007 (EDT)

Incredibly impressive, ShadowDancer! That looks way better, and should make finding info much easier (I'd never noticed there were sub-categories before...).

By the way, did you do anything extra, or just add the tags that you mention? I think the functions could use a bit of this treatment (and if I know what I'm doing, I'll be happy to help!)

--Haama 15:48, 1 October 2007 (EDT)

For the most part, it was just the new tag on a lot of the pages. I redid some of the subcategory pages because otherwise it ended up with two of those category boxes on the bottom of the article pages (you would really have to look at the Articles section of those Subcategory pages in edit mode to understand what I did there because its a little too hard to explain without seeing it). On those I did the same thing with a fake link to the Subcategory page and just duplicated the format on the Subcategory page with a table to imitate what was there before I removed the articles. That and I added the subcategories that were missing in the settings category but were on other pages - they were sort of linked in a few spots, but you had to dig for them. That, and I made two-column tables on the templates to shorten the length of Category:Settings page.

ShadowDancer 10:43, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

Stickman's Comments

Updating the page now, but I notice that closing and reopening the game settings window can change the variables that are shown in it. Where do we report construction settings bugs again? --Stickman 23:57, 31 March 2006 (EST)

If I noticed anything was misspelled I put a (sic) there. Sic is an editor's term that basically means "intentionally misspelled" and is often used when quoting some written work that missues spelling or grammar. See also sic on Wikipedia. I figured it would help avoid spur-of-the-moment "oh he made a typo here" corrections.

There are also a few oddities I didn't draw notes on. For example fAItalktoNPCtimer is one of the few that only capitalizes AI and NPC instead of using title capitalization. "Standoff" also only appears as one word, as near as I can tell, so "off" is always lowercase. When they use the word "to" it may or may not be capitalized. All the rules are out the window when dealing with facegen strings.

I assume the correctness will all eventually be double checked when people made sub pages for them with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one is.

Lastly, this page should be split into sections. It's 4:30am and I just spent the last few hours transcribing variable names. I'm in no mood to do that, but I did have an idea on how to play the game:

Two sections. If they know the variable name they're looking for, they can look at an alphabetical listing (divided into pages or variable type (eg, float, integer, string) and then alphabetical. Or if they know what it's related to, they can check the "subject" section and get info on things like facegen, xbox specific (a place to dump them), chargen, and until we get it all sorted, the all-inclusive "unknown" category.

I'll see about getting to the task later if no one else has. If I can figure out how to play this wiki game well enough. --Stickman 07:30, 1 April 2006 (EST)

Category size

As new articles are created for this category its going to explode in size. Can a webmaster weigh in on how we're to organize this stuff. A single massive article might be better than hundreds of small articles. MegaBurn 19:12, 2 April 2006 (EDT)

I'm of the position that settings should be split into general sections like Bribery. This page is almost entirely useless. Individual settings pages should have Redirects to their appropriate page. Daego 19:22, 2 April 2006 (EDT)

That might work for tutorials and/or general use article. This page is still necessary and its usefulness will increase as more articles are added. An alternative is splitting the category into 3 subcategories for f, i, s settings but thats still pretty ugly organization. 4 articles might be better, general article, f article, i article, and s article, then delete the setting specific articles that have already been created. Someone who's a sysop or higher needs to settle this... MegaBurn 19:36, 2 April 2006 (EDT)

This page isn't entirely useless, when categories reach 200+ they split across multiple pages and it becomes a royal PITA to swap pages when looking for related things. Go here (category:functions) and you'll see what I mean, paging between page1 and page2 to look for related functions isn't helpful. If sub categories (bribery, spellcasting) are needed, or useful for organization, then we create them as necessary and see what happens as the wiki evolves. FWIW there's nothing to "settle" at the moment, create some pages and see how they're used, if they become irrelevant then remove them, if not then expand on them. --Halo112358 20:12, 2 April 2006 (EDT)

--Kkuhlmann 16:39, 7 April 2006 (EDT): Why restrict yourselves to one solution? Script functions is organized in multiple ways: there are categories for each function type (Movement Functions, Player Functions, Crime Functions, etc.), and each command includes the Category:Functions (so it appears on the main page) as well as its particular function type (sometimes more than one). That way you get the best of both worlds -- one big category where you can see everything if you want to, plus smaller subcategories if you want to delve. It might help to put a higher level category above these pages (again, similar to the way script functions are organized) so that the massive multi-page list isn't the first thing you hit.

Monolithic list split

I chunked the monolithic list on the category page into three pieces, float, int & string settings - each of those is it's own include template. The category page still looks the same but now you can edit the sections without having to scroll through ~50Kb of text. We could also include those lists on other pages if we wanted to, though I really don't see a reason why we would. --Halo112358 19:08, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Here's a separate page for the massive settings list: Comprehensive_Settings_List. I haven't moved the list off of the Category page because I wanted to see what people thought of the idea first. I think it's probably a good idea to make the list a "click for huge page of data" kind of thing instead of shoveling 50Kb of text at people as soon as they land in the Settings category.If no one objects I'll do it sometime next week - otherwise let's chat. --Halo112358 19:43, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Collapsing similar pages

I've collapsed a number of similar pages into lists to reduce the number of articles appearing in the settings category. If you're adding new articles that deal with a number of similar settings, ie: iLockLevelMaxVeryEasy, iLockLevelMaxEasy, iLockLevelMaxAverage, iLockLevelMaxHard, etc.. please consider a list page instead of a number of small pages. This also makes future edits faster, instead of updating 5-10 pages you only need to update one.

Note: In some cases it would be nice to add redirect stubs into categories that aren't as full, I've tried creating redirect stub pages of this form:

#REDIRECT [[Collapsed Page XX]]
 [[Category:Foo Category]]

Unfortunately mediawiki doesn't support these sorts of stubs, everything after the #REDIRECT declaration is ignored. If this ever changes, or someone finds a workaround, please drop me a note. --Halo112358 19:26, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

--Mrflippy 16:40, 4 May 2006 (EDT): Try putting the category tag on the same line as the redirect as such:

#REDIRECT [[Collapsed Page XX]] [[Category:Foo Category]]

Found some GameSettings

Hey, I've got some info for gamesettings. And yes, I've tested every one of them.:

fAbsorbDistanceReachMult: This affects the distance that 'Absorb' effects wear off. May be affected by fMagicUnitsPerFoot (Default: 3.0)

fCreatureCalcCombat/Magic/Stealth: Determines skill growth for levelled creatures. (Default: 2.0)

Disposition based on Personality = (fDispActorPerBase + (fDispActorPerMult * Personality) + (fDispTargetPerMult * Target's Personality)) / 2.0

Defaults

ActorPerBase: 0.0

ActorPerMult: 1.5

TargetPerMult: 0.5

Disposition modded by Bounty: Bounty * (fDispActorBountyBase + (fDispActorBountyMult * Responsibility)) * fDispTargetBountyMult

Defaults

ActorBountyBase: -1.0

ActorBountyMult: 0.02

TargetBountyMult: -0.003

Disposition modded by Infamy: Infamy * (fDispActorInfamyBase + (fDispActorInfamyMult * Responsibility)) * fDispTargetInfamyMult

Defaults

ActorInfamyBase: -1.0

ActorInfamyMult: 0.02

TargetInfamyMult: -0.3

Disposition modded by Faction: FactionMod * fDispTargetFactionMult * (fDispTargetFactionRankBase + (FactionRank * fDispTargetFactionMult))

Defaults

FactionMult: 1.0

FactionRankBase: 1.0

FactionRankMult: 0.5

And yes, I did deliberately use the non-Rank multiplier twice. FactionRankMult itself is not used.

iDispBountyMax: Max disposition modded from bounty. (Default: 20)

iDispFameMax/fDispInfamyMax: Max disposition modded from Fame/Infamy. The values are individual. For some reason, the Infamy setting is a floating value while Fame is an integer. Both work as intended. (Default: 20 for both)

fDispTargetFameMult: Disposition factor multiplied by Fame. Does not depend on Responsibility. (Default: 0.3)

fDispTargetRaceMult: Multiplier for race disposition modifiers (Default: 1.0)

fDispTargetWeaponBase: Disposition modifier for when holding weapon out. (Default: -10.0)

fDispositionReduction: Seems to have no effect. (Default: 3000.0)

fFight: GetShouldAttack = AggrBase + DispBase + DistanceBase + (AggrMult * Agression) + (DispMult * Disposition) + (DistanceMult * Distance). If GetShouldAttack >= 1 then the actor will start combat on detection

Defaults

AggrBase: -55.0

AggrMult: 1.0

DispBase: 50.0

DispMult: -1.0

DistanceBase: 1.0

DistanceMult: -0.05

FriendBase: -25

FriendMult: 1

FriendBase and FriendMult are modifiers for allying with others the actor has a high disposition to.

fFriendHitTimer: The time it takes to reset 'ally hit' counter. (Default: 10.0)

fMagicDispelMagnitudeMult: The effectiveness of the Dispel magic effect. (Default: 5.0)

fMagicSunDamageBaseDamage: The multiplier for maximum Sun Damage effect. (Default: 2.0)

fMagicSunDamagePainInitialDelay: Time before grunting from sun damage once. (Default: 2.0)

fMagicSunDamagePainTimer: Time before grunting from sun damage again. Still limited by fPainDelay. (Default: A ridiculously high number)

fMagicSunDamageMinWeather: Determines how effective weather is at reducing sun damage. (Default: 0.2)

fMagicSunDamageScreenGlowMult: Max intensity of screen brightness when taking sun damage. (Default: 3.0)

fMagicSunDamageScreenGlowRateUp: How much the screen brightens per second when taking sun damage. (Default: 1.0)

fMagicSunDamageScreenGlowRateUp: How much the screen dims back per second after taking sun damage. (Default: 1.0)

fMagicUnitsPerFoot: Determines area effect multiplier for spells. (Default: 22.0)

fPainDelay: Minimum delay before character can grunt from pain again. Will not interrupt itself unless the actor dies. (Default: 2.0)

The fDifficulty settings imply that difficulty affects ALL damage, however this is wrong. This is only damage done by other actors, not by fall damage, or scripts such as traps.

Well, that's about it. And no, I'm not doing the pages. I've done enough work, at least for now.

--D MAS 15:23, 26 May 2016 (EDT)