Difference between revisions of "Talk:Creating Large Worldspaces"

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=== A Few Notes ===
=== More Notes ===


'''TES4Geko''' - Figured out you need to put quotes around the Path name in Windows 7 to get it to work. Example:
As for region generation I'm not so sure the 'requirements' listed for deleting content in bordering regions is really necessary. I'm running a rather large experiment on the whole subject for the next couple days. But I think it's been over complicated a little in the original article. --[[User:Bruneauinfo|Bruno]] 17:14, 16 January 2011 (EST)


"C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre1.6.0_18\bin\javaw.exe" -Xmx1200m -jar "T:\(install_path)\TES4Gecko 15.2\TES4Gecko.jar"
I'm applying a different method here:


'''Oblivion.esm''' - Is loading Oblivion.esm really necessary for creating a new world space? Doesn't this just set Oblivion.esm as a dependency for your New World? I just tested this and was able to create a new world space without Oblivion.esm. And after creating the new world space I was still able to load both Oblivion.esm and my new world space ESM files without error.
1 - I'm not worrying about having my region borders separate from my region content. First of all because it's not practical when creating a large worldspace. The potential for errors in locating region borders is tremendous. I followed the region borders instructions to the best of my ability. I then merged with the .esm. However, in many, many cases during region content generation I've already deleted some region borders and completely reconstructed them with no apparent side effect.  


'''Final Editing''' - I have a few notes in reference to making corrections in large world spaces to "sew together" the borders between quads.  
I lieu of the instructions I've defined all my regions generally. Next I go back into these regions and break them up into small bite-sized pieces (12-15 cells). From my testing it appears that a region twice the size of another region with the same content takes exponentially more time to generate content as the smaller of the two. It actually takes less time to break the larger one in half and generate it in two parts than it does to generate it all at once. A LOT less time. The smaller the region the more productive you will be. So I think I can recommend breaking large regions down into ones containing no more than 12 to 15 cells.


*The greatest number of errors (rips) on a texture are created in the hightmap editor where land is not properly blended before saving the texture. Any large, abrupt changes in elevation are prone to tearing. These are indicated by hard lines between two colors. There should be no hard lines left on your texture in the hightmap editor when you save it. Make sure all hard lines are blended with either the blending tool or the noise tool.
On the other hand, if your region content data is not creating a lot of objects the above suggestion can be ignored for the most part.  


*Additionally, in reference to the above note tears can be prevented at the exterior perimeter of your New World by blending the last few cells into the water rather than having the land just suddenly stop and drop off. Blending can be done with the blending tool or with the noise tool depending on the terrain type you want at these locations.
2 - As for deleting content in neighboring regions? I've dispensed with that suggestion entirely. I've done up-close inspections of neighboring regions where this suggestion was followed and where it was not followed - in fact abused excessively and intentionally - and found no evidence of objects being copied on top of each other. If this is happening it is minute and the suggestions for avoiding it seem more expensive time-wise than just manually deleting unnecessary objects. --[[User:Bruneauinfo|Bruno]] 18:05, 16 January 2011 (EST)


*For World Spaces larger than 4 quads: When blending the borders between quads in the landscape editor it isn't necessary to to blend these perfectly to your finished specifications. Getting a good finished product can be just as time consuming in the landscape editor as it is in the heightmap editor with all of its seeming random error generation. Here is my suggested methodology keeping in mind the rest of the article's instructions:
===Other Issues===


1 - Design and finish the layout of 4 quads <br /><br />2 - Save in the heightmap editor <br /><br />3 - Make error corrections in the landscape editor, save, and create .esm <br /><br />4 - Start new .esp and design/finish the layout of the next 4 quads <br /><br />5 - Save in the heightmap editor <br /><br />6 - Make error corrections in the landscape editor, save, and merge with the .esm <br /><br />7 - Repeat above steps designing additional quads following this pattern and merge <br /><br />8 - After all heightmaps are created and merged start a new esp <br /><br />9 - Edit the borders in the heightmap. Multiple esps will be required for large worlds. Merge each "border-edit" esp with the esm as they are created. Also as you edit the borders scan the heightmap your working on for errors and fix them as you go. These will appear as sharply contrasted squares/rectangles. <br /><br />10 - After all borders are edited use the landscape editor to correct errors in conjunction with the heightmap editor. DO NOT make corrections with the heightmap editor at this time, and DO NOT save any more textures in the heightmap editor. At this time you will only use the heightmap editor for finding errors in your textures. Make the actual corrections using the landscape editor. Merge with the esm.
This -> '''"Once an object has been placed in a cell from region generation, and once that session has been saved and ended, the object can no longer be removed by that region. Meaning that if you want to change any settings related to region items, or have overlapping regions, you would have to manually remove them cell by cell if you've already saved the mod and started a new session."''' <-- Is a little misleading. If you generate a region and found you have objects, spacing, etc that you don't like, you can remove the entire contents of the region, make adjustments, and generate the region again. And you can do this at any time during region generation. Yes, you won't want to do this after you start placing special objects like structures and NPCs, but common sense would dictate that you get your worldspace in order first before adding your game content. --[[User:Bruneauinfo|Bruno]] 14:40, 17 January 2011 (EST)


'''The Invaluable Navigation Method''' - It is very important for large world creation and editing to learn how to navigate in the landscape editor most efficiently. The method is contained in the points below.
The article mentions removing "viewable when distant" flags i.e. vwd flags. I've searched the internet via google and asked a lot of questions. Looking at [[TES4LODGen]] it appears the program no longer requires vwd flags be removed for proper operation. So I've edited the article to reflect this. --[[User:Bruneauinfo|Bruno]] 15:40, 20 January 2011 (EST)


*When entering the landscape editor it is extremely helpful to arrange the cells by cell number in the ''Cell View'' window. This makes it much easier to find a particular cell that needs correction. You do this by clicking on the header titled "Location" in the ''Cell View'' window. This will order the cells numerically so you can find cells most efficiently.
=== Old Notes ===


*Press 'A' to turn on enhanced lighting. This makes it easier to see what you're doing.
(Content moved to body of article.) --[[User:Bruneauinfo|Bruno]] 14:01, 16 January 2011 (EST)


*Navigate the map from a ''bird's eye view'' using the arrow keys to move the camera when hunting for errors and making corrections. Details:
:This all looks very good - why not include it in the main article proper? Yours looks ''better'' than what's there, for that matter!
:[[User:DragoonWraith|<span style="font-family: Oblivion, Daedric Runes; size=2;">D</span>ragoon <span style="font-family: Oblivion, Daedric Runes; size=2;">W</span>raith]] [[User_talk:DragoonWraith|<span style="font-family: Oblivion, Daedric Runes; size=2;">TALK</span>]] 15:07, 15 January 2011 (EST)


1 - Start by pressing 'T' to get the camera oriented properly for using the arrow keys. The arrow keys do NOT work relative to the camera position. Rather the 'Up' arrow always moves the camera north, the 'Down' arrow always moves the camera South, etc. Pressing 'T' will orient the camera to a bird's eye view perspective where up will be North, down will be South, etc. This will make the arrow keys match the direction the camera is moving on-screen. You can press 'T' at any time to restore this position. <br /><br />2 - After pressing 'T' to get the camera oriented properly use the mouse wheel to zoom out. Zoom out until you see the edge of the currently viewable cells. Navigating from this perspective will allow you to see errors and rips which will usually appear as purple just as long as the land is above water. Rips under water will require zooming in closer to find. <br /><br />3 - Make the mental connection between Cell coordinates and how the coordinate system is related to the world you created in the heightmap editor. To do this start by finding Cell 0,0 in the landscape editor and loading it. Then follow steps 1 and 2 directly above to get the camera oriented properly. Now go to the heightmap editor and figure out where 0,0 is. Note how the Cell coordinates change on the heightmap editor as you go North, South, East, or West. You should be able to pick a cell from the heightmap editor and navigate to it manually in the landscape editor using '''only''' the arrow keys. <br /><br />4 - Find errors in your landscape textures in the heightmap editor and then locate them in the landscape editor using the error keys. Correct them in the landscape editor using 'Soften Vertices' or 'Flatten Vertices' then save your corrections in the CS - BUT NOT IN THE HEIGHTMAP EDITOR. <br /><br />5 - Avoid using the 'Shift' key and 'Space Bar' for navigating except when making corrections that would be difficult to make otherwise. Once these types of corrections are made press 'T' again to restore proper camera perspective and zoom out.
::I've noticed I have three stages of editing information:
::1 - I try to find and follow directions.
::2 - I find things about the directions I think are faulty and so I edit the directions
::3 - Time passes and some or all things I thought were bunk end up being true. So I go back and edit them again.  
 
::So instead of doing 2 in the main article, I thought it would be best to put my notes in the Discussion area first so as not to look like a fool and screw someone else up in their endeavors. :-D --[[User:Bruneauinfo|Bruno]] 14:01, 16 January 2011 (EST)
 
:::OK, fair enough; carry on then. Excellent work all around! That's even better, honestly - I appreciate you checking back and correcting misunderstandings even more than the initial commentary, heh!
:::[[User:DragoonWraith|<span style="font-family: Oblivion, Daedric Runes; size=2;">D</span>ragoon <span style="font-family: Oblivion, Daedric Runes; size=2;">W</span>raith]] [[User_talk:DragoonWraith|<span style="font-family: Oblivion, Daedric Runes; size=2;">TALK</span>]] 16:45, 16 January 2011 (EST)
 
=== VWD Removal ===
 
Quote: '''Once you have trees and other content, you will also need to clear out all the VWD flags for your world space using TES4Edit in order for your world space to show correctly when loaded anywhere other than the 01 index. You would need to do this cleaning after every change which adds more trees, but thankfully, you only need to clean out those things which were added/moved. (Note: This final note has still not be verified in recent testing.)''' I've verified this to be correct. If nobody objects, I'll remove the final sentence in parentheses. There is a discussion that I started regarding this issue at http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1361740-move-worldspaces/ . [[User:Lanceor|Lanceor]] 07:57, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 06:57, 1 April 2012

More Notes[edit source]

As for region generation I'm not so sure the 'requirements' listed for deleting content in bordering regions is really necessary. I'm running a rather large experiment on the whole subject for the next couple days. But I think it's been over complicated a little in the original article. --Bruno 17:14, 16 January 2011 (EST)

I'm applying a different method here:

1 - I'm not worrying about having my region borders separate from my region content. First of all because it's not practical when creating a large worldspace. The potential for errors in locating region borders is tremendous. I followed the region borders instructions to the best of my ability. I then merged with the .esm. However, in many, many cases during region content generation I've already deleted some region borders and completely reconstructed them with no apparent side effect.

I lieu of the instructions I've defined all my regions generally. Next I go back into these regions and break them up into small bite-sized pieces (12-15 cells). From my testing it appears that a region twice the size of another region with the same content takes exponentially more time to generate content as the smaller of the two. It actually takes less time to break the larger one in half and generate it in two parts than it does to generate it all at once. A LOT less time. The smaller the region the more productive you will be. So I think I can recommend breaking large regions down into ones containing no more than 12 to 15 cells.

On the other hand, if your region content data is not creating a lot of objects the above suggestion can be ignored for the most part.

2 - As for deleting content in neighboring regions? I've dispensed with that suggestion entirely. I've done up-close inspections of neighboring regions where this suggestion was followed and where it was not followed - in fact abused excessively and intentionally - and found no evidence of objects being copied on top of each other. If this is happening it is minute and the suggestions for avoiding it seem more expensive time-wise than just manually deleting unnecessary objects. --Bruno 18:05, 16 January 2011 (EST)

Other Issues[edit source]

This -> "Once an object has been placed in a cell from region generation, and once that session has been saved and ended, the object can no longer be removed by that region. Meaning that if you want to change any settings related to region items, or have overlapping regions, you would have to manually remove them cell by cell if you've already saved the mod and started a new session." <-- Is a little misleading. If you generate a region and found you have objects, spacing, etc that you don't like, you can remove the entire contents of the region, make adjustments, and generate the region again. And you can do this at any time during region generation. Yes, you won't want to do this after you start placing special objects like structures and NPCs, but common sense would dictate that you get your worldspace in order first before adding your game content. --Bruno 14:40, 17 January 2011 (EST)

The article mentions removing "viewable when distant" flags i.e. vwd flags. I've searched the internet via google and asked a lot of questions. Looking at TES4LODGen it appears the program no longer requires vwd flags be removed for proper operation. So I've edited the article to reflect this. --Bruno 15:40, 20 January 2011 (EST)

Old Notes[edit source]

(Content moved to body of article.) --Bruno 14:01, 16 January 2011 (EST)

This all looks very good - why not include it in the main article proper? Yours looks better than what's there, for that matter!
Dragoon Wraith TALK 15:07, 15 January 2011 (EST)
I've noticed I have three stages of editing information:
1 - I try to find and follow directions.
2 - I find things about the directions I think are faulty and so I edit the directions
3 - Time passes and some or all things I thought were bunk end up being true. So I go back and edit them again.
So instead of doing 2 in the main article, I thought it would be best to put my notes in the Discussion area first so as not to look like a fool and screw someone else up in their endeavors. :-D --Bruno 14:01, 16 January 2011 (EST)
OK, fair enough; carry on then. Excellent work all around! That's even better, honestly - I appreciate you checking back and correcting misunderstandings even more than the initial commentary, heh!
Dragoon Wraith TALK 16:45, 16 January 2011 (EST)

VWD Removal[edit source]

Quote: Once you have trees and other content, you will also need to clear out all the VWD flags for your world space using TES4Edit in order for your world space to show correctly when loaded anywhere other than the 01 index. You would need to do this cleaning after every change which adds more trees, but thankfully, you only need to clean out those things which were added/moved. (Note: This final note has still not be verified in recent testing.) I've verified this to be correct. If nobody objects, I'll remove the final sentence in parentheses. There is a discussion that I started regarding this issue at http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1361740-move-worldspaces/ . Lanceor 07:57, 1 April 2012 (EDT)

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